You are still glossing over the fact that Marxists wish to abolish all private property, all classes, and establish a Communist society that will eventually have no government. Socialists have no such prescriptions, and for the most part are in favor of Governments, but wish for Governments to help take care of the population. And you're right, many people believe in an evolutionary order of the universe. Even you do Joel, as you've often demonstrated by pointing out how many country's are going into decline and society is regressing. Inherent in those terms is the idea that things were better. So by your opinion we went from Good to Worse, when we should have been moving to great.

And I think the problem with Illegals is easily solved. Make them all legal. Make them pay taxes etc, make it so that employers can't pay them little amounts under the table rather than hiring other american applicants.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"*



Erik

* no brown people, or darker, please